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Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - darrell - 11-04-2019
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Trip Plan - take a final 2019, 20 day ride in September to northern Louisiana, southern Arkansas and eastern Texas. Planned for 5000 miles and to finish off seeing some things on my list in those areas.
Trip Ending - day 1, 300 miles in to the day about 225 miles from home.
Trip Ends Due To - drive shaft front universal joint failure.
Trip Ends In - west central Iowa on a small county road. As usual I had not idea where I had lunch as paid in cash, no idea of the town I just passed through and no idea of the road number I was on as was just heading towards Missouri enjoying the agriculture land in western Iowa.
Next Steps - find a means to get the bike to a secure location, find a motel for the night and determine what my next options were for accessing the damage.
Getting help - a call to my dealer, MoonMotorsports on a Saturday afternoon gave me some relief as they would try to help me find a vehicle to relocate bike back to Minnesota. Using the BMW Anonymous Book found me a 25 mile ride with tow to a motel. A call an hour later from my service manager telling me they had an employee who would come the 300 miles and pick me Sunday morning as he had a grandmother half the ways to me he would like to spend a couple of days with. Sunday morning at exact time he told me the driver and pickup would be there they showed up to pick up my broken down RS. First we had to unload the service departments RS they brought down for me to ride home and then we loaded mine on the pickup. I broke down at 1430 on a Saturday afternoon and Sunday at 1400 I was home watching the end of the Vikings game.
Damage - front universal joint broke while riding about 70 mph. The rotating drive shaft damaged the swing arm interior, the universal joint parts attached to the transmission damage the transmission rear housing and broke off the output shaft of the transmission.
Repairs - BMW does not have parts to repair the old style transmission found in bikes assembled before June of 2016. The extended warranty company looked for a used transmission to install in the bike for 2 weeks and when one could not be secured elected to install a new transmission with the judder damper on the output shaft. These transmissions with judder damper shafts are now used on bikes. Being the transmission size changed it also meant a new starter which is slightly shorter. So a new swing arm, new drive shaft, new transmission, new starter and new bearings in the rear of the engine for the updated transmission.
Judder Information - BMW describes it as "Judder damper on the transmission output shaft along with revised selector drum actuators, transmission shaft, and transmission shaft bearings".
Repair Process - installing a new transmission requires removal of the engine from the bike, installation of new bearings in the back of the engine and then the addition of the new starter, swing arm and drive shaft. The bike was down for nearly 6 weeks but it gave me an opportunity to put 4000 miles on the 2002 R1150GSA which now has 126,000 miles on it.
Final Thoughts - I do sense with the new style transmission the clutch has a lighter feel and the bikes gear shift assist is smoother. I could not be happier with the help I received from the couple who took time to get me and the bike to a motel and with MoonMotorsports for sending a vehicle to pick up the bike as well as bringing me an RS to ride home. All the work with the extended warranty company was handled through the service department. The extended warranty company, BMW goodwill help for a customer, some coupon discounts and MoonMotorsports tireless efforts to make this go smooth for me keeps me believing in the brand and the people associated with it.
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Answering some questions
No real reason yoke broke other than time of use
Bike has 93,000 miles on it
Total labor, parts, and a towing costs were a bit over $11,000. Most extended warranty policies pay up to the current value of the vehicle for a single incident and up to the total cost of vehicle before accessories are added for all incidents during the term of the contract. If you buy an extended warranty read it before signing so you know what you are buying. Might take a couple of hours. My bike was valued at $8400 so they paid that amount. BMW goodwill covered a nice part of the remaining. I worked with my dealer on the remaining.
On Wayne’s comment on how parts seem broke off keep in mind how fast this is all turning when it failed at 70 mph which certainly knocked pieces off as it ruined the interior of the swing arm, ruined the back plate of the transmission and caught enough at some point to break off the output shaft of the transmission which is hollow.
Rays note on dealer support is so true. Hand your mechanic a hundred dollar bill sometime after they do something major on your bike and I bet the next time you need assistance like I did on a Saturday afternoon, they will be there for you. They were instrumental in working with BMW to handle the goodwill part of the costs. I can also say if you bitch about BMW on public forums, take shots at them even if you strongly feel a certain way or complain about something you can’t do anything about anyway, keep in mind they also read those public forums or social media sites. They just may remember you when you need them.
I have 2 friends who have lost universal joints this summer. One was the upper at 89,000 miles on R1100S and the other was the lower at 90,000 miles on a 2015 R1200GSA. The GSA also had a damage swing arm and had to replace that. He had the same extended warranty company I did. Rider with S paid for a used drive shaft and then got rid of the bike.
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - darrell - 11-04-2019
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RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - darrell - 11-04-2019
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RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - Lee - 11-04-2019
Good to hear it all worked out fairly painless for you.
Good job by your dealer.
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - Rotorwrench - 11-04-2019
Wow Darrell! Glad that you are ok. Must have been some pretty good pucker factor going on when that yoke came loose. I have a couple of questions. Did they say why the yoke grenaded? Looks to me like there was severe overheating going on in there. What would it have cost if you didn't have an extended warranty?
Glad everything is working out,
Mike
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - Grumpy Goat - 11-04-2019
Great post and great pictures, Darrell. Only one thing missing from the story and that is the number of miles on the old transmission.
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - mspratz - 11-04-2019
Wow! Not fun. I guess the extended warranty was a worthwhile expense. I found a couple of articles about this subject.
Why you need to inspect the drive shaft and universal joints regularly: https://riders.drivemag.com/news/here-s-why-you-should-check-your-drive-shaft-from-time-to-time
And how to do it, although this article covers only the rear universal joint: https://advrider.com/f/threads/r1200gsw-lc-wethead-final-drive-change-and-spline-lube-pictorial.1129815/
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - Grumpy Goat - 11-04-2019
(11-04-2019, 05:30 PM)Rotorwrench Wrote: ... I have a couple of questions. Did they say why the yoke grenaded? Looks to me like there was severe overheating going on in there. ...
I started looking into these failures on the internet and many (most?) cases it is due to improper lubrication of the needle bearings. In one of the images of the fracture above, the impression of a needle bearing seems to be welded or stamped into the fracture surface.
Improper lubrication can come from misalignment leading to whirling vibration which can wear the seals and can exacerbate the loss of lubricant. I guess as the joint wears, the misalignment becomes more of an issue. Also moisture can also reduce the effectiveness of the lubrication.
What is surprising to me is the amount of metal that looks like it fell off in chunks, and not simple friction-type wear.
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - Ray - 11-05-2019
(11-04-2019, 01:47 PM)darrell Wrote: Trip Plan - take a final 2019, 20 day ride in September to northern Louisiana, southern Arkansas and eastern Texas. Planned for 5000 miles and to finish off seeing some things on my list in those areas.
Trip Ending - day 1, 300 miles in to the day about 225 miles from home.
Trip Ends Due To - drive shaft front universal joint failure.
Trip Ends In - west central Iowa on a small county road. As usual I had not idea where I had lunch as paid in cash, no idea of the town I just passed through and no idea of the road number I was on as was just heading towards Missouri enjoying the agriculture land in western Iowa.
Thanks professor.
Lessons learned:
- The extended warranty can make a lot of sense.
- Even those who don't abuse their machinery can have a trip-ending mechanical.
- Continue to support the local dealership - doughnuts might not be enough.
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - darrell - 11-05-2019
Update answering questions and a couple of comments added to the original post.
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - Duccrazydave - 11-05-2019
(11-04-2019, 08:20 PM)mspratz Wrote: Wow! Not fun. I guess the extended warranty was a worthwhile expense. I found a couple of articles about this subject.Thanks for the links, Mike. Something I'll be checking at 24K on mine
Why you need to inspect the drive shaft and universal joints regularly: https://riders.drivemag.com/news/here-s-why-you-should-check-your-drive-shaft-from-time-to-time
And how to do it, although this article covers only the rear universal joint: https://advrider.com/f/threads/r1200gsw-lc-wethead-final-drive-change-and-spline-lube-pictorial.1129815/
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - Grumpy Goat - 11-06-2019
This post is pretty informative on these types of failure, even if the original photo to which it refers is no longer available. The poster apparently is a mechanic, although his website is now defunct.
Drive shaft destroyed, post 20
He goes on to say that the joints (in our case the whole driveshaft, since it is one unit) should be replaced (in his opinion) at around 60k miles.
In post 33 he mentions that "removal of the complete shaft and thorough inspection by someone with driveline experience is best."
From what I have read so far, inspection cannot be in situ inspection - you have to remove the driveshaft and then move the joints all around, feeling for any lack of tightness / smoothness in the motion. Any sign of same and the joint (driveshaft) needs to be replaced. Critical is the maintenance of a good seal at the rubber boots at both ends, as water is not the friend of these joints. The shaft itself is uncoated for a reason and cal tolerate surface rust, but the joints (which are permanently sealed) should not be allowed to see water since water can displace the grease over time and once the lubrication starts to go the needle bearings start to wear rapidly and from then onwards it is a slippery slope.
So it seems to me that as owners we need to be inspecting these boots thoroughly and regularly (e.g. every oil change / 6k miles, or more often), and as the bike gets more mileage, we should be pulling the drive shafts out and inspecting the U-joints, with a view to preventive replacement at more than 60k miles - 80k miles. You do not want to have the driveshaft catastrophically fail and cause other damage and a potential crash while riding.
Looking at my Haynes book, pulling the driveshaft seems pretty straightforward for the handy DIYer, and I intend to make a video of this operation when I do it. My bike only has 43k miles so it is not yet in the statsitically significant mileage range just yet. If the dealership is to do it, I would think that it would not cost very much - should be no more than 2 hours tops for an experienced technician, one hour if s/he is good. Parts and shop supplies would be extra.
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - Lee - 11-06-2019
(11-04-2019, 01:47 PM)darrell Wrote: Most extended warranty policies pay up to the current value of the vehicle for a single incident and up to the total cost of vehicle before accessories are added for all incidents during the term of the contract.
Good to know. While this makes sense, I had never thought about this point.
Who determines the value?
Does the insurance company go strictly by the book value, or does the dealer who is very familiar with the bike have a say on value.
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - Ray - 11-06-2019
(11-06-2019, 01:11 PM)Lee Wrote: Who determines the value?All seems pretty arbitrary....
Does the insurance company go strictly by the book value, or does the dealer who is very familiar with the bike have a say on value.
As I get ready to renew insurance with Liberty Mutual, I was informed Monday - without any knowledge of mileage or condition of the bike - that they consider replacement value for my bike bought in 2015 to be around $14,700.
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - darrell - 11-06-2019
I too believe it is arbitrary. But ... Look your homeowners policy and tell me your house is really the value the insurance company put on it. They are collecting insurance on that value. Your insurance company for vehicles is likely doing the same. Check the top line of what you paid for your bike. Likely in the $16,000 - $17,000 range or lower with any rebates. That is the number most extended warranty companies likely work from as that is all they would ever cover in total expenses during the contract. Look at the used book value on motorcycles and see what a now 4 year old RS is worth. It will be less than that original number by some percentage. Ask a dealer what your bike is worth on a trade-in and keep in mind you can buy brand new 2020 RS bikes for $2000 off the list price without any negotiation. I was happy my bike with 93,000 miles was valued at the price it was. A local BMW dealer just sold a brand new 2016 RS, BMW found in the warehouse, for $11,495 using Cycle Trader. Between Cycle Trader, BMW dealers selling bikes and what they feel the used market is I have to believe most extended warranty companies have to be close to the market price or they would not stay in business. Another good way to check what you bike is worth is asked a bank for a loan as you will get a percentage of that value for a loan or ask an insurance company if you crashed and your bike was totaled what the pay off would be. There is 2016 RS with 15,000 miles on Advrider the last 3 plus months for $11,500 OBO with a fair amount of accessories like Nav V, panniers, barbacks, inter pannier bags, 3 windscreens and new tires located in St. Louis area.
The above is strictly my opinion so certainly open to others challenging me or sharing a completely different thought.
By the way I have put on my calendar when the bike reaches the 150,000 mile mark to just put a new drive shaft in it and enjoy the next ride.
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - Ray - 11-06-2019
(11-06-2019, 03:03 PM)darrell Wrote: I too believe it is arbitrary. But ...
...The above is strictly my opinion so certainly open to others challenging me or sharing a completely different thought.
By the way I have put on my calendar when the bike reaches the 150,000 mile mark to just put a new drive shaft in it and enjoy the next ride.
You are correct about value on all points. When they want my dollar, the insurance company grossly inflates the price. When it comes to actually paying out, I'm sure their calculations would change dramatically.
(...and have to say, the GS frenzy is hot and heavy in Saint Louis. Though motorcycles sell well here, and there are a bunch of RSs on the road, like elsewhere, demand has never been high. I believe the dealership currently has a 2 or 3 used bikes available.)
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - mspratz - 11-06-2019
When it comes time to replace the driveshaft, you may want to search to see if there is an Ei rebuild-able driftshaft available for the R1200 Water Cooled models by then. There doesn't seem to be one right now. This is an example for an earlier model R1200: https://www.beemershop.com/Merchant5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=TRA06394A
The driveshaft costs $650.00, and if you scroll down you'll see that you can buy a rebuild kit for it for $185.00. BMW currently charges $1200.00+ for the OEM part.
I tried to find a website for Ei, but nothing came up.
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - Lee - 11-07-2019
(11-06-2019, 08:21 PM)mspratz Wrote: BMW currently charges $1200.00+ for the OEM part.
In the 90s when we put new driveshafts in our K75Ss they cost around $200.
Do I sound like the old guy that complains you could buy a candy bar for 5 cents back in the day
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - Ray - 11-21-2019
Thought I posted a rambling reply late the other night, but I don't see it, and in it absence, I'll cut to the chase.
I recall you mentioned earlier this year, a 100 foot traverse of highway covered by 15 inches of Missouri river water under the watchful eye of the local constabulary.
Would the time and depth be right to wash out some of the lubricant at the front of the drive shaft. (In which case, I might be taking a look at my drive shaft to see how the seals held up to some of my more memorable water crossings last year.)
RE: Some Trips End Early for Mechanical Reasons - darrell - 11-21-2019
(11-21-2019, 06:51 PM)Ray Wrote: Thought I posted a rambling reply late the other night, but I don't see it, and in it absence, I'll cut to the chase.That is an interesting thought. I did ride in some water that covered my foot pegs for a distance of 150 - 200 ft when the bike had about 75,000 miles on it. I just cannot imagine that would affect the lubrication of the upper U joint but again I don’t know. I just looked at the bike and the upper U joint sits just about the foot pegs height. So maybe that U joint was in water for a short period of time. I rode very slow in what appeared to be very clean water.
I recall you mentioned earlier this year, a 100 foot traverse of highway covered by 15 inches of Missouri river water under the watchful eye of the local constabulary.
Would the time and depth be right to wash out some of the lubricant at the front of the drive shaft. (In which case, I might be taking a look at my drive shaft to see how the seals held up to some of my more memorable water crossings last year.)