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+---- Thread: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines (/thread-259.html)
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - mspratz - 12-30-2019
Jim Von Barden's reply to my post on ADVRider.com was somewhat encouraging. He said "Highly unlikely that the snap ring is mangled. The way it is captured makes that highly unlikely."
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - mspratz - 12-30-2019
(12-29-2019, 04:31 PM)Grumpy Goat Wrote: ...I just ordered the Castrol molybdenum disulphide paste and a bottle of silicone paste with a nifty applicator brush[/url].
I have added the silicon paste to my Amazon wish list so I have it for next year's annual "shafting" ceremony.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - Grumpy Goat - 12-30-2019
(12-30-2019, 02:27 PM)mspratz Wrote: Jim Von Barden's reply to my post on ADVRider.com was somewhat encouraging. He said "Highly unlikely that the snap ring is mangled. The way it is captured makes that highly unlikely."
Yeah, I saw that.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - mspratz - 12-30-2019
(12-29-2019, 05:50 PM)Olgry1 Wrote: Michael, good luck with your driveshaft/splines. I am probably 50 miles from you so if there is anything I can do to help just pm me.Thank you so much!
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - mspratz - 01-03-2020
A quick update. I have heard nothing back from the dealer. I have no idea if they've started working on the drive shaft service yet. I plan to call them when I get home about 4:30 pm today. I'll post an update then.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - Grumpy Goat - 01-03-2020
OK. Meanwhile I have received today my moly-disulphide paste and already have my silicone glue/paste, so I am set to do the operation in maybe 3500 miles.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - mspratz - 01-03-2020
I just spoke the the dealer's service manager. They have removed the driveshaft. The tech had to drive a metal wedge between universal joint and the end of the final drive input shaft to separate the two. There was significant corrosion at both ends, but he says there is not significant pitting of the splines and everything is in good shape.
I am going out there tomorrow to have a look at it before they put it back together.
He has submitted it to BMW as a warranty job, and is hoping they will pay for at least half of it. He says the total bill will be about $500.00 if BMW does not pay any. BMW are suggesting that I must have ridden it through deep water or used a pressure washer for water to end up inside the swing arm, neither of which I have ever done. He and I agreed that it was more likely that my bike was built on a Tuesday (supposedly the worst day for vehicle build quality) during Oktoberfest, because the grease they use to seal the boots only went about halfway around each of the boots on my bike, so there was no seal. He said he told BMW that the bike is pristine.
I asked him how often he advises servicing the driveshaft. He said he does the splines on his K1600 every 12,000 miles. I'm adding it to my service schedule spreadsheet.
I'll post again tomorrow when I've had a look. I'll try to take pictures if I have the opportunity.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - Grumpy Goat - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 05:26 PM)mspratz Wrote: I just spoke the the dealer's service manager. They have removed the driveshaft. The tech had to drive a metal wedge between universal joint and the end of the final drive input shaft to separate the two. There was significant corrosion at both ends, but he says there is not significant pitting of the splines and everything is in good shape.
WOW! Drive a metal wedge - you know that means banging on it with a hammer as well! Good that they are doing that and not you, eh?! At least after this there will be lots of lube and hopefully lots of silicone sealant.
(01-03-2020, 05:26 PM)mspratz Wrote: I am going out there tomorrow to have a look at it before they put it back together.
Great! PLEASE DO take photos of the shaft end and the final drive input as well and post here. This is the most significant problem with these bikes that I know of, and this thread alone has made this RWSb forum and website worthwhile for me.
(01-03-2020, 05:26 PM)mspratz Wrote: He has submitted it to BMW as a warranty job, and is hoping they will pay for at least half of it. He says the total bill will be about $500.00 if BMW does not pay any.
I suppose it could be worse ... but that is a pretty crappy unexpected expense I the first place.
(01-03-2020, 05:26 PM)mspratz Wrote: BMW are suggesting that I must have ridden it through deep water or used a pressure washer for water to end up inside the swing arm, neither of which I have ever done. He and I agreed that it was more likely that my bike was built on a Tuesday (supposedly the worst day for vehicle build quality) during Oktoberfest, because the grease they use to seal the boots only went about halfway around each of the boots on my bike, so there was no seal. He said he told BMW that the bike is pristine.
See that there is a BS statement that would cause me to walk from the brand. These shaft drives are on GSs, FFS, and they are designed to ford streams etc. That is in the freaking name! What they are saying is an admission that their drivetrains are weak, then. I am not having that, that's for sure.
(01-03-2020, 05:26 PM)mspratz Wrote: I asked him how often he advises servicing the driveshaft. He said he does the splines on his K1600 every 12,000 miles. I'm adding it to my service schedule spreadsheet.
I'll post again tomorrow when I've had a look. I'll try to take pictures if I have the opportunity.
I think that adding the BS driveshaft servicing is a sound idea and I will be doing the same. I will likely do it annually or ever 12k miles, whichever comes first.
Looking forward to the pictures.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - Lee - 01-04-2020
Thanks for the update.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - mspratz - 01-04-2020
I drove out there this morning and had a look. I think the main thing is that none of the splines are badly pitted by rust, either in the end of the driveshaft or on the gearbox output shaft or the final drive input shaft. The tech has yet to clean up the surface rust off any of them. I did not get a photo of the gearbox output shaft.
This is the front end of the driveshaft that slides onto the gearbox output shaft. It is structurally sound, with minimal surface rust on the splines. The splines on the gearbox output shaft itself (not shown) were in good shape:
The following picture shows the rear end of the driveshaft that goes onto the final drive input shaft. Note that one side has been ground away, as has one side of the flower shaped ring around the final drive input shaft in the subsequent picture, which makes me think the tech drove a wedge between them to separate them. Seems like it would have been better to drive a wedge between the rear universal join and the end of the final drive input shaft. Too late now.
The final drive input shaft. Note the grinding of the left side of the flower shaped surround of the shaft. Also, you can see some damage to the shiny circular outer surround, caused by the tech's efforts.
The following image shows the rear boot, which goes between the end of the swingarm and the final drive. There is a 1/2" slit in it, which I've opened with my finger. The tech doesn't know if the hole was there, or if he created it while trying to separate the driveshaft:
Before they do any more, they are waiting for the two other techs to come back from vacation, as they both have contacts at BMW and may be able to get it covered under warranty.
All these bits are yet to be cleaned up to remove the surface rust. All they've done so far it get the pieces apart.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - Lee - 01-04-2020
The surface rust is a lot less than others I've seen pictures of.
I'm surprised that about of rust was enough to seize the parts.
I take it the rubber boot will be replaced.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - Grumpy Goat - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 01:57 PM)mspratz Wrote: I drove out there this morning and had a look. I think the main thing is that none of the splines are badly pitted by rust, either in the end of the driveshaft or on the gearbox output shaft or the final drive input shaft. The tech has yet to clean up the surface rust off any of them.
...
Before they do any more, they are waiting for the two other techs to come back from vacation, as they both have contacts at BMW and may be able to get it covered under warranty.
Thanks for the additional photos, Michael. As Lee mentioned, the amount of rust (little) seems to not be enough to cause the seizure, but it had to be that if the tech had to use force to drive the mated pieces apart. It makes me wonder how much lube it got from the factory, especially since the boot was also improperly silicone-sealed.
Shame the tech was not sure if he put the 1/2" hole in the boot or if it had it before - if the latter was the case then that could suggest that was the entry point for the water leading to the rust.
Please do keep us updated with how this is proceeding.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - mspratz - 01-05-2020
(01-04-2020, 04:21 PM)Lee Wrote: I take it the rubber boot will be replaced.Definitely! The part is about $62.00.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - mspratz - 01-05-2020
I just send a Contact Us message to the MOA via their website, explained the situation briefly, and asked if there is anything the MOA could do to help influence BMW to cover this under warranty. I'm not expecting anything to come of it, but you never know.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - Lee - 01-05-2020
(01-05-2020, 10:12 AM)mspratz Wrote: I just send a Contact Us message to the MOA via their website,
John Gamel helps with matters like yours.
John Gamel - BMW MOA Consumer Liaison
john.gamel@bmwmoa.org
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - mspratz - 01-10-2020
(01-05-2020, 12:30 PM)Lee Wrote: John Gamel helps with matters like yours.John Gamel from BMWMOA contacted me and has been talking to the dealer about this issue. I received a final email from him today. The result was less than satisfactory, and I would have been better off to never have contacted the MOA. BMW have concluded that the problem is completely my fault because the only way water would have gotten into the swing arm is if I had used a pressure washer. I do not own a pressure washer and I have never used one. However, it is convenient for them to reach the conclusion they did. At the end of his email, John says he agrees with their conclusions. I think John's involvement probably only succeeded in pissing off the people in the dealer's service department.
I will post his final email to me in a follow-up post.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - mspratz - 01-10-2020
BMWMOA Consumer Liaison Rep's final email to me:
Michael - I spent some time on the 'phone yesterday afternoon with Lee Bencolese who is the owner of CycleWerks (CW) of Barrington, IL. As I mentioned in speaking with you earlier, I had been in contact with him on a prior occasion regarding another inquiry from a BMW MOA Member. He was helpful and forthcoming in that instance, and I expected nothing else this time.
I initially called him earlier yesterday, but he wanted to speak with the tech who worked on your bike before he spoke much about it. In our latest conversation, he had spoken with the tech and told me what the CW story was:
1) When you brought your RS to CW, your observation was that you were unable to separate the parts of the final drive in order to lubricate the splines. You advised CW of your discovery of water in the final drive enclosure. CW Tech then was able to separate the splines. Based on your statements and his observations, the CW Tech made an inquiry through the system BMW uses (for both cars and motorcycles) for technical issues. This system is called TSARA. The inquiry noted your observation of water in the enclosure and a possible hole in one of the boots, and your request that perhaps BMW would cover the work done under warranty. The CW Tech included photos of all pieces in the final drive.
2) Upon receipt and analysis the TSARA analyst noted first that the warranty had expired. Second he noted that historically, BMW R1200RS motorcycles of this vintage only show water entry to the final drive housing due to pressure washer usage or submersion in deep water while riding. The effect of either of those conditions is that grease is washed out, there is no lubrication and the "splines fail." The splines did not fail in your case, and both you and CW agree (I think) that they were in good condition when separated at CW. Third, the TSARA analyst denied warranty coverage for this repair, noting also (as you did to me) that there's no requirement in scheduled maintenance by BMW for any inspection of these parts.
3) Lee told me that CW told you of the TSARA submission, and of the result. You denied that you'd used a pressure washer on the bike. The bill for CW's work is for 4.2 hours of labor, some spline lube and a new (non-holed) boot, probably about $500+.
4) The fact that CW chose to make inquiry through the BMW/TSARA system shows the gravity with which they viewed this occurrence of water in a final-drive housing. It seems to happen rarely and the TSARA inquiry both alerts BMW to a problem and offers the opportunity for BMW to participate in the solution.
Summary: I'm in agreement with BMW NA's TSARA analyst and CW on this. It's unfortunate for you that BMW chose not get involved, but the low incidence of this type of failure was significant.
Thank you for your inquiry to the BMW MOA Consumer Liaison.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - mspratz - 01-10-2020
And my response:
Thanks for all your efforts.
The most irritating thing about this is their conclusion that this is my fault. I MUST have used a pressure washer. Well I didn't. I don't own one and I know enough to not use one around anything with bearings, seals, or electrical connectors. I have never ridden through water of any depth, although I've done quite a few long days in the rain.
With regard to "Lee told me that CW told you of the TARA submission, and of the result." Bernie (CW service manager) was always very vague regarding his interactions with BMW. He never said there was any final conclusion reached, although he did not sound encouraging. The last time I spoke to him he said he would "try one more time". My aim in involving you was to hopefully give them a nudge.
As for "...water in a final-drive housing. It seems to happen rarely...", have a look at this thread: https://advrider.com/f/threads/r1200gsw-lc-wethead-final-drive-change-and-spline-lube-pictorial.1129815/ There are over 1000 posts on this thread, many from guys discovering the drive shafts and splines of their wetheads covered in rust. I would bet BMW thinks this happens rarely because they never inspect these components, as its not part of the maintenance schedule. By the time something fails, the bike is out of warranty so its not their problem; like my friend whose driveshaft failed catastrophically at 93,000 miles, doing $12,000 worth of damage to his R1200RS. BMW have a serious design flaw and/or an assembly quality-assurance problem with this part of the wethead bikes.
I'm sorry to have wasted your time. I will pay the $500.00.
Again, thanks for your efforts.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - mspratz - 01-10-2020
I still haven't heard from the service dept whether my bike is ready.
RE: Drive Shaft seized on the final drive splines - Lee - 01-11-2020
(01-10-2020, 05:10 PM)mspratz Wrote: John Gamel from BMWMOA contacted me and has been talking to the dealer about this issue. I received a final email from him today. The result was less than satisfactory, and I would have been better off to never have contacted the MOA.
Sorry to hear this did work out for you and you may be right that getting the MOA involved at this early stage may have made the dealer dig in and resist.