(12-17-2021, 11:39 AM)jacco Wrote:

(12-17-2021, 11:21 AM)Motorhead1977 Wrote: I have that one on my home computer and a CD version of the BMW manual (pirate copy) and will try to compare random pages later tonight or tomorrow and post.

Thank you so much! Don't waste too much time on it, I'm simply trying to get some idea of what I'd be getting for my $33. I have no major maintenance plans at this point, I'm currently just looking for the correct torque specs for installing the luggage rack that I just received in the mail. It came without any installation instructions, and for some reason these instructions are also not on https://www.bmw-motorrad.com/en/service/...anual.html.

I opened both manuals and compared several sections. The info appears to be identical.

(12-04-2021, 09:30 AM)Motorhead1977 Wrote: I'll know when I download my copy in a little while, but IMHO it's still better than no manual at all. ?

Did you look to see if it had a index?

No index but there is a table of contents you can open on the left side of the page. It's reasonably detailed by section.

Gateway BMW recently updated their parts ordering. This popped up when I looked at service manuals available for my bike.

https://www.shopbmwmotorcycles.com/v-201...ir-manuals

(01-14-2022, 01:34 PM)Ray Wrote: Gateway BMW recently updated their parts ordering. This popped up when I looked at service manuals available for my bike.

https://www.shopbmwmotorcycles.com/v-201...ir-manuals

Ray, I am confused. Motorhead1977 was also able to see it listed on the website of 2 or 3 dealerships but the problem was when he came to order it - see his post #18. They said it cold not be ordered.

Does Gateway actually have it on hand?

(01-14-2022, 04:06 PM)Grumpy Goat Wrote: Ray, I am confused. Motorhead1977 was also able to see it listed on the website of 2 or 3 dealerships but the problem was when he came to order it - They said it cold not be ordered.

Does Gateway actually have it on hand?

Don't be confused - perhaps just another dead-end parts post..., but for those interested in getting a service manual, might be worth a try or call.

I just read in the latest issue of BMWON (Jan. 2022) page 32, Wes Fleming article states that BMW is no longer releasing service manuals on newer motorcycles. They want you to take it to the dealer for everything.

Frank

(01-15-2022, 09:04 AM)Duckbubbles Wrote: I just read in the latest issue of BMWON (Jan. 2022) page 32, Wes Fleming article states that BMW is no longer releasing service manuals on newer motorcycles. They want you to take it to the dealer for everything.
Frank

Yep - finally had time to sit down with coffee and the ON at my backyard table - in what passes in St. Louis for a winter wonderland - and turned right to Wes' article.

From Corporate - as cited in the ON article:
“Due to the increasing technical complexity of our new vehicles, we have decided, in order to maintain a flawless technical condition and to ensure compliance with legal requirements, that in the future we as a manufacturer will only support repairs by trained staff in specialist motorcycle workshops (for example, at authorized BMW Motorrad dealers and in BMW Motorrad service workshops). Operating instructions and installation instructions for our original BMW Motorrad accessories for the individualization of our vehicles will of course remain available on our homepage for download by end customers.”

My initial thought was this was the result of some legal action from some folks who'd messed up a big job and took out their frustration on the folks who provided them with the DVD..., but then, the less specific Haynes Manual has probably led more folks down the rabbit hole than the BMW manual. Not clear what legal argument took them to pull consumer access to what must be a big pile of old DVDs for all bikes.

Hard to believe BMW would want to pass up the profits from sales of all those over-priced DVDs and related specialty tools.

And then there's the R18 - isn't part of the American Cruiser culture to spend more time on maintenance and cleaning than riding? Not sure how well the lack of a service manual will go over.

Of course, this has been a trend with car makers for years. GM and Toyota come to mind. And just for fun, I checked to see if I could order a service manual for a BMW 530e.... I can get tire valve caps, and I can download an owner's manual, but there's no service manual.

Sounds like more (well, less) to come.

(01-15-2022, 10:31 AM)Ray Wrote: My initial thought was this was the result of some legal action from some folks who'd messed up a big job and took out their frustration on the folks who provided them with the DVD..., but then, the less specific Haynes Manual has probably led more folks down the rabbit hole than the BMW manual.

Quite likely the case, or just a smart decision by BMW Motorrad who probably realize that they can do that and still not make any dent on their sales directly attributable to that decision. The bikes will either sell based on other reasons or they will not, and the lack of a service DVD will make an insignificant impact on sales.

BMW will spin it as "ultimate driving machine with all the latest in safety, electronics and technology should get the best technical expertise working on it and that is at a dealership with factory trained technicians and diagnostic equipment ..." Those buzz words cannot be denied by any of us, so we'll have to accept the spin even if some of us grumble. Would any of us swear off BMWs because of the lack of BMW service manuals?

Also, BMW Corporate they are also well known for putting big pressure on dealerships to set up their showrooms a certain way and make the necessary infrastructure investments to be "worthy" to carry the marque. So, if the dealerships get more service business because of this decision on the Service Manuals, then both the dealership and BMW Corporate win. Despite that, the sales of the bikes will still continue ...

As for the Haynes Manuals ... I think that no one who may had had a failure due to misinterpretation of the steps in a Haynes Manual would go to BMW complaining that said manual led them wrong and they expect BMW to fix it on their dime. I have Haynes manuals for all my bikes and AAMOF have a BMW DVD Shop Manual for my RS. Guess which one I have never opened yet? The Haynes manual is good for many things, but the DIY owner should be aware of their limitations and know when to bring the bike in for the real technician to do their job rather than risk creating a SNAFU that will send good money after bad.

(01-15-2022, 10:31 AM)Ray Wrote: Hard to believe BMW would want to pass up the profits from sales of all those over-priced DVDs and related specialty tools.

I figure it this way ... for each bike sold there may / may not be a DVD sold for $125. If they lose these $125 sales, they probably make that money back in jig time maybe within the profit from one service, and we know the bike will be in the dealership for more than one service no matter how handy an owner is.

(01-15-2022, 10:31 AM)Ray Wrote: And then there's the R18 - isn't part of the American Cruiser culture to spend more time on maintenance and cleaning than riding? Not sure how well the lack of a service manual will go over.

Cleaning, polishing and posing yes, working on the mechanics of the bike .... hardly. One of the groups I ride with has people on Harleys - all marine engineers - and with the exception of one, they all go to the dealership for all service work. The one that does not automatically go there is (a) cheap as heck (but owns 6 bikes), and (b) has basic knowledge that means he can do all the basics and he does. But all the bikes in the rider group are always typically clean and shiny.

(01-15-2022, 10:31 AM)Ray Wrote: Of course, this has been a trend with car makers for years. GM and Toyota come to mind. And just for fun, I checked to see if I could order a service manual for a BMW 530e.... I can get tire valve caps, and I can download an owner's manual, but there's no service manual.

I agree with you on this being a trend in recent years throughout the automotive industry, and will be more acute in the premium market where there is more disposable income and less time to be willingly "wasted" on working on the mechanics of the machine "when there is an expert who can do it right the first time, even if I have to pay ..."

Added to that is the fact that as our generation dies off the owners of any vehicle (car or bike) would be ignorant of everything on the vehicle other than the infotainment system, and would be inclined to bring it to someone else to get anything fixed. A manual may as well be written in Chinese so there is no need. My daughter drove that point home a couple of weeks ago when she had a problem with the battery on her car needing to be charged and I suggested that she could borrow my charger and take it to her place and have her boyfriend do the needful. She said that I might as well explain that to her as he basically had no clue about cars or anything mechanical. I don't know him very well but from what I do know she is probably absolutely right.

Sorry for such a long post. Yes, I wished that they continued selling the DVDs for those of us who want / use them, but I can totally understand what their rationale for might be for stopping these sales. After all, the bigger problem is not the shrinking DVD market but the shrinking motorcycling market in the first place.

Here's a couple threads from the MOA forum.

https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php...ailability

https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php...ailability

Grumpy Goat, I agree that BMW made a business decision and also that in all likelihood most newer/younger owners probably have no interest in doing their own maintenance/service. It's not the business decision that irks me, it's the storyline they're feeding us.
The article in ON says BMW said it's because the bikes have become so complicated. Well would someone please tell me where between 2018 and 2021 BMW motorcycles made this sudden quantum leap? I say this since I was able in 2018 to buy a BMW factory repair manual for my 2018 RT and also buy one in 2020 for my 2020 1250RS but in 2021 became unable to buy one for that very same bike. So hey, BMW, I'll call you out.... your stated reason is PURE BULL S**T. It's a money grab and nothing else. In my opinion it's the complete lack of integrity by BMW telling outright lies that concerns me.

(01-15-2022, 03:11 PM)Motorhead1977 Wrote: Grumpy Goat, I agree that BMW made a business decision and also that in all likelihood most newer/younger owners probably have no interest in doing their own maintenance/service. It's not the business decision that irks me, it's the storyline they're feeding us.
The article in ON says BMW said it's because the bikes have become so complicated. Well would someone please tell me where between 2018 and 2021 BMW motorcycles made this sudden quantum leap? I say this since I was able in 2018 to buy a BMW factory repair manual for my 2018 RT and also buy one in 2020 for my 2020 1250RS but in 2021 became unable to buy one for that very same bike. So hey, BMW, I'll call you out.... your stated reason is PURE BULL S**T. It's a money grab and nothing else. In my opinion it's the complete lack of integrity by BMW telling outright lies that concerns me.

Of course I understand where you are coming from, but I suspect that they have all along not relished the idea of selling their DVDs to the public but maybe they simply put up with it till now when they finally decided enough was enough. Maybe, as Ray mused, there was some proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

I have no issue with their spin ... its their bikes and they can spin it however they want ... and we will likely continue to buy the bikes. Those of us who DIY work on our own bikes and give a crap about this and a tiny minority and even if we complain on these forums (and even if they read the forums) it will not really matter. They will continue to sell bikes to whoever they sell them to presently, including you and me.

Much as I love my RS and BMWs, in my case my issues with the bikes have nothing to the lack of a DVD manual, and more to do with the general attitudes among all manufacturers when it comes to ownership and accessory costs. At least here in NA, they treat these machines as leisure / weekend indulgences such that anything to do with motorcycles (unless it comes from China) are overly expensive and that includes the service. I grew up in a place where motorcycles are transportation, and that is precisely what my bikes are used for over here. For example, why the heck should I pay big bucks for a brand name metal grate to protect my radiator when I can buy the exact same thing - but without the name - for almost 10x cheaper. Why should I buy a $900+ GPS unit when it gets the screen jumping issue and has to be replaced (sometimes over and over) but if I want to have the jog wheel integration I am locked into this unit?!

But guess what, the market - such as it is - will bear it and so we have it. At least until the market pays more attention to value for money.

(01-15-2022, 02:16 PM)Grumpy Goat Wrote: SNIP....Would any of us swear off BMWs because of the lack of BMW service manuals? ...SNIP

Since you ask - I will not buy a vehicle without a service manual. So if this is truly the case for BMW, then the RS will be the last new BMW I buy. I did manage to get the DVD prior it's sale being prohibited.

I realize that when it come to the electronic "brains" I will need to go to the dealer for repairs. The GS-911 is as far as I want to go with electronic diagnostics.

The rest of the equipment I want the information to be able to diagnose and repair.

Not to mention the miscellaneous torque specs and special procedure information.

Bill

(01-15-2022, 02:16 PM)Grumpy Goat Wrote: Would any of us swear off BMWs because of the lack of BMW service manuals?

We're good for another six years or so with the R1250RS using the R1200RS DVD.
With Debbie's arthritis I would be surprised if she can still ride after that.

(01-16-2022, 08:59 AM)Lee Wrote: We're good for another six years or so with the R1250RS using the R1200RS DVD.
With Debbie's arthritis I would be surprised if she can still ride after that.

I certainly hope that her arthritis does not do that as I know how she loves to ride. These RSs of yours, especially with the care you put into them, should last forever.

Personally, as long as there are Haynes manuals (as an example, because I presently like to work on my bikes, up to a point), the lack of BMW service manuals would have absolutely zero impact on any decision I make to buy a BMW motorcycle. As long as they offer that nice balance of performance, functionality, design and robustness, they may have my money (as long as the price is "acceptable"). Any of those variables go bust and I leave.

But that is just me ... As is typically the case I see things quite differently than most ...

If anyone has a copy of a manual please PM me.

(01-21-2022, 04:43 AM)maxredline Wrote: If anyone has a copy of a manual please PM me.

PM sent.

Here is a comment I posted on BMW Motorrad USA's Facebook page and their response:
   

(01-22-2022, 09:21 AM)mspratz Wrote: Here is a comment I posted on BMW Motorrad USA's Facebook page and their response:

Hmmm ... wonder what their "solution" would be (given that it was they who stopped providing the manual for purchase) ... other than bringing it in to the dealer ...

(01-22-2022, 10:37 PM)Grumpy Goat Wrote:

(01-22-2022, 09:21 AM)mspratz Wrote: Here is a comment I posted on BMW Motorrad USA's Facebook page and their response:

Hmmm ... wonder what their "solution" would be (given that it was they who stopped providing the manual for purchase) ... other than bringing it in to the dealer ...

What? NM.