Mark Barnes - the philosophical approach to his RS

[Ray]

https://www.bmwownersnews.com/2021/11/ze...r-1250-rs/

Mark Barnes, a clinical psychologist, and motojournalist (see recent book, Why We Ride) likes the RS. Unfortunately, this "review" of why he likes it is about as soft and mushy as Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, to which he repeatedly defers.

(Personally, I object to elevating the late Robert Pirsig's writings on philosophy beyond the plane of run-of-the-mill, adolescent angst - that in poor Mr. Pirsig's case, persisted through adulthood).

Not clear why Dr. Barnes would be reminded of ZAMM, unless he can't sort out all the things the engineers got right with this sport tourer, and he was simply left with a big grin on his face when the front end came up as he throttled up on the exit of his first turn - and he couldn't sort out all the reasons he was smiling.

   

[Grumpy Goat]

I resized the picture (to 800 x 600 pixels) as it was showing up huuuge on my monitor.

I can't read his column ... too long winded and boring for my tastes. Every time I start reading an article that looks promising, I lose interest after 3 minutes. BUT I do like his taste in BMWs given he has an RS. Even the colour he has right.

OTOH, I DO like Ron Davis' column, and almost all other writers in Owner's News, including Jack Riepe. ZAMM is on my nightstand waiting for a solid commitment ...

[VTBob]

https://www.bmwownersnews.com/2021/11/ze...r-1250-rs/

Mark Barnes, a clinical psychologist, and motojournalist (see recent book, Why We Ride) likes the RS. Unfortunately, this "review" of why he likes it is about as soft and mushy as Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, to which he repeatedly defers.

(Personally, I object to elevating the late Robert Pirsig's writings on philosophy beyond the plane of run-of-the-mill, adolescent angst (that in poor Mr. Pirsig's case, persisted through adulthood).

Not clear why Dr. Barnes would be reminded of ZAMM, unless he can't sort out all the things the engineers got right with this sport tourer, and he was simply left with a big grin on his face, as the front end came up on the exit of the first turn he took on it - and he couldn't sort out all the reasons he was smiling.

Well said!

I tried to read ZAMM years ago....could not get past the first few pages

I'm glad he likes his RS

[Grumpy Goat]

So thanks to Ray posting about this article, I gave in to my curiosity and read it. I will confess, I was able, for the first time, to make it through to the end! Perhaps it is because it is about the RS ... but two things I can say about my take on the article.

1. It is not a review of the RS per se, and
2. I am exactly aligned with his view (even though I have not yet read ZAMM) and I did like what he had to say about his perception of it and its Quality. So much so that I will be linking to the article on the RSWb website.

Still don't know if I will be reading his articles ... at least not as an imperative. Maybe I will continue to make attempts, but given that BMW ON magazines are typically stored on my nightstand, the articles have to be Good and to have a more direct Quality for me to make it to the end ... Good and Quality, of course, meaning different things to different people.

The article reminds me that after 6 years of owning the RS I am yet to do a "review" - as an owner - on either my website or my YouTube Channel. I keep mulling over in my mind how I should approach it, and probably because I have so much to say, I keep procrastinating. Contrast that with the current "second bike" the Yamaha Tracer 900 GT. I recently put up a video about 5 things each that I love / hate / find "meh" about that bike and have a couple other review-type videos. But none of that for the RS. Yet.

One thing is for sure ... I have never gotten off ANY bike I have had thus far and said "What a bike!" or felt the same feelings as I do towards the bike, as I do after a good ride on, or a long distance tour with the R1200RS. Maybe that is the same manifestation of Quality that Barnes is alluding to.

[Ray]

So thanks to Ray posting about this article, I gave in to my curiosity and read it.

1. It is not a review of the RS per se, and
2. I am exactly aligned with his view (even though I have not yet read ZAMM) and I did like what he had to say about his perception of it and its Quality. So much so that I will be linking to the article on the RSWb website.

The article reminds me that after 6 years of owning the RS I am yet to do a "review" - as an owner - on either my website or my YouTube Channel. I keep mulling over in my mind how I should approach it, and probably because I have so much to say, I keep procrastinating.

Thanks for your help and thoughts.

Standing by for your review. (Yes, it will be longer than that of Dr. Barnes.) Maybe you can publish it in the MOA Owners News as kind of a rebuttal to the somewhat glib treatment the RS received in this month's issue.

(Take the lead from VTBob - get ZAMM off your nightstand - although I guess as a sleep medicine guy, I could recommend it as a somnorific agent.)

[Grumpy Goat]

Thanks for your help and thoughts.

Standing by for your review. (Yes, it will be longer than that of Dr. Barnes.) Maybe you can publish it in the MOA Owners News as kind of a rebuttal to the somewhat glib treatment the RS received in this month's issue.

(Take the lead from VTBob - get ZAMM off your nightstand - although I guess as a sleep medicine guy, I could recommend it as a somnorific agent.)

Hahah ... you're welcome. And thanks for the tip about getting ZAMM off the nightstand, although sitting next to my CPAP it is with good company.

I am not sure if my type of review would be good for the pages of BMW ON where reviews tend to be only glowing and positive. And I don't claim to be any sort of wordsmith, definitely not these days. While my view of the RS is overall very positive, there are things that I would mention that may not be as glowing as some would like or expect ... but they are only a few. But we'll see ...

[Lee]

I am not sure if my type of review would be good for the pages of BMW ON where reviews tend to be only glowing and positive.

The Bagger and Transcontinental didn't get a glowing review in the November issue

[Grumpy Goat]

The Bagger and Transcontinental didn't get a glowing review in the November issue

I noted the lukewarm tenor of the review ....

Strangely, based on looks alone, I tend to like the Transcontinental ... Sleek lines and no fugly muffler. Great in a museum.

[maxredline]

ZAMM
https://www.bartneck.de/projects/researc...ig/zen.pdf

[4corsa]

I have to agree that ZAMM is very overrated. The degree of his self-absorbed ego is exemplified on one of the last pages when he finally realizes (after 1500 miles?), that his young son has been staring at the middle of his back all this time, and perhaps this is why he hadn't been so thrilled to be on the trip with dad.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[Ray]

I have to agree that ZAMM is very overrated.  The degree of his self-absorbed ego is exemplified on one of the last pages when he finally realizes (after 1500 miles?), that his young son has been staring at the middle of his back all this time, and perhaps this is why he hadn't been so thrilled to be on the trip with dad. 

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Tough raising a child with a brain like that. 

I'll always give Pirsig credit for trying; I consider any trip on 2 wheels therapeutic for what ails us in modern society - even if the view forward is limited....

Although the younger Pirsig (Chris) tragically died some years later, I'd like to think his emotional problems were delayed a bit by a motorcycle and the dad who rode it.

[Pyrrho]

ZAMM was admittedly quite influential to me when I was first exposed to it 40-some years ago, in that it tricked me into thinking about philosophy. Barnes' article tricked me into thinking it was something worthwhile to read; he reaches no conclusions other than his own subjective preferences interfere with his perception of quality. His writing style is in desperate need of an editor.

[Ray]

... His writing style is in desperate need of an editor.

Right - a different era. The editors liked the unedited style of writing from the heart. 

Now he could have used ChatGP..., which I was sorely disappointed to learn has nothing to do with MotoGP.

[Grumpy Goat]

Now he could have used ChatGP..., which I was sorely disappointed to learn has nothing to do with MotoGP.

Apparently it knows everything and can spout off fakery in any direction at the behest of any bidder. Heaven help us.

[Grumpy Goat]

.... Barnes' article tricked me into thinking it was something worthwhile to read; he reaches no conclusions other than his own subjective preferences interfere with his perception of quality. His writing style is in desperate need of an editor.

Hehehe ... glad to see it is not just me with this view. He usually loses me after 15 seconds. I realise that he is taking the time to frame his article but at the same time, the framing cannot be so elaborate (?) as to risk losing the opportunity to actually make the point.

[TriangleRider]

.... Barnes' article tricked me into thinking it was something worthwhile to read; he reaches no conclusions other than his own subjective preferences interfere with his perception of quality. His writing style is in desperate need of an editor.

Hehehe ... glad to see it is not just me with this view. He usually loses me after 15 seconds. I realise that he is taking the time to frame his article but at the same time, the framing cannot be so elaborate (?) as to risk losing the opportunity to actually make the point.

Definitely not just you.  Kinds of fits in with the whole MOA mag, though.  I rarely spend more than a few minutes with it and spend the most time with the letters to see what people are bent out of shape about this month.

[mspratz]

I don't usually reply to most of the threads on this forum, because my upbringing imprinted on me the underlying belief that no-one would possibly care about my opinion. In this case I'll make an exception. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is probably the most important book I ever read. I have read it several times now, having recently re-read the entire thing. It is not an easy read, and there's plenty of it that I don't understand, but here is what I get out of it:
- Quality cannot be defined, but we know it when we see it.
- Aristotle did humanity a huge disservice when he decided that reality consisted of two aspects, the Objective aspect (things) and the Subjective aspect (our perception), and ignored Quality (goodness). Western civilization is based on Aristotle's philosophy and the result is terrible, where the focus of most is on making more money and accumulating more stuff, regardless of the cost to the planet and the other people and lifeforms that have to co-exist on it with us.
- If you want satisfaction in life, then in everything you do, do it as well as you can. I have followed this most of my adult life since I read the book the first time, and I know from experience in my professional life and my personal life that the cheapest and quickest way to get something done is to do it right the first time. Quality! If you do take the "quick and dirty" approach, take shortcuts, in the end it will cost more and take longer.
As far as the "story" in the book, I believe (with little or no evidence) that it is auto-biographical. While at the University of Chicago, he came to a philosophical realization (regarding quality) that was so mind boggling and profound that he appeared to those around him to have gone insane. He was institutionalized (insane asylum) and the treatment (electro-shock therapy) permanently erased the details of the realization from his brain, possibly a tragic loss for humanity. The book is his subsequent attempt to piece together as much of it as he could.
As far as motorcycle maintenance is concerned, in the book it is just an analogy for self-maintenance, and a means to illustrate quality. However, with regard to mechanical devices, Pirsig makes the point that if you spend enough time examining a mechanism you will eventually be able to understand how it is made and how it works, and you will then be able to (carefully) take it apart and correctly put it back together.

[Grumpy Goat]

I don't usually reply to most of the threads on this forum, because my upbringing imprinted on me the underlying belief that no-one would possibly care about my opinion.

Michael, I often wondered why you are not more vocal on the Forums (especially mine) since (as you probably know) your thoughts and mine are so very similar. Ever since I first met you in 2016 in Eureka Springs (the very first in the Group other than the other founders) I know that we thought similarly, and nothing through the years has changed that. We even have some motorcycle gear that is the same! Anyway, I like to hear your thoughts, always.

In this case I'll make an exception. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is probably the most important book I ever read. I have read it several times now, having recently re-read the entire thing. It is not an easy read,

Now I have to go and attempt (again) to read it. It is on my bedside table and when I first attempted to read it it was very hard getting past the first page or two. My bedside reading is usually motorcycle magazines, and the narrative has to be interesting enough to hold my attention. At other times I am busy with other things ...

Sounds like reading this book is like "work" and at work I do a lot of careful reading in my job (engineer and engineering quality auditor  ) so I am disinclined to read anything that requires much effort in my non-work hours.

That said, I do like your synopsis of the book, which makes it sound very interesting and it your summation is accurate then it may well be worth my time. I will now go and remove it from my bedside table and bring it in my "man cave" / office.